Larry King Live 8/25/00

BLITZER: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. We have a great panel that is going to begin right now. Jimmy Breslin, he's the columnist for "Newsday," Pulitzer Prize winner, he is joining us. Thank you for joining us. Carl Bernstein, executive vice president and executive editor of Voter.com, also a Pulitzer Prize winner -- everybody remembers from what he won his Pulitzer Prize.

CARL BERNSTEIN, EXECUTIVE EDITOR, VOTER.COM: Al won one too.

BLITZER: And Al Franken, not a Pulitzer Prize winner. He's a comedian.

AL FRANKEN, COMEDIAN: Not yet.

BLITZER: Of course, the author: "Why Not Me?" -- hasn't won a Pulitzer Prize yet, right?

FRANKEN: No, but I chose Joe Lieberman as my running mate. I'm prescient.

BLITZER: You knew that in advance.

FRANKEN: By the way, I was watching the exchange -- it wasn't an exchange -- but the two speeches.

BLITZER: They were talking about military preparedness.

FRANKEN: Yeah, I -- I'm not a military expert, as you might know. But I went to Kosovo. And I went to the Balkans with Secretary Cohen last year. And I thought the morale was incredibly high. And, I know that when Bush talked about -- in his acceptance speech -- about two divisions not being ready -- is that what he said?

BLITZER: Yes.

FRANKEN: And they are. So I don't...

BLITZER: But you are not a military expert.

FRANKEN: Not yet.

BERNSTEIN: It's a little like the missile gap back in the Kennedy race in 1960. And the origins of this, actually, are John McCain's campaign. McCain said -- I think with some reason on his side and some history on his side -- that since the end of the Cold War, there has been some inattention to people in the military, particularly in their pay, etcetera. It is not a partisan issue in terms of what happened. It goes through about 12 years of Republican and Democratic presidents. And what George W. Bush has done is to seize it as a partisan issue. And I don't think the record justifies that.

BLITZER: Jimmy Breslin, is this a big issue in New York, the whole question of U.S. military, is it prepared to fight the next war? Because that was a big issue on the campaign trail this week?

JIMMY BRESLIN, COLUMNIST, "NEWSDAY": Is it going to be a big issue here? Did they believe anyone what they are saying? I think they both have a very...

BLITZER: Anybody in New York paying attention that issue?

BRESLIN: No, I don't -- the issue that I wish somebody would pay attention to -- nobody is going to -- and that is you see Hillary Clinton warm, lovable woman. And then she stops to say: Oh, yes, don't forget I'm for the death penalty. She makes sure you know that. Lazio is for it. Both people running for president are for the death penalty. And Bush is going to get in a hell of a lot of trouble with it, because somebody is down there that has got a case that is lousy. And the guy is dead. The state killed him. And they know it. And it's coming out. Not one person is against the death -- is against capital punishment when, in the state of Illinois, they found, what, 120 were absolutely wrong.

BLITZER: That's why the Republican governor there decided to put a moratorium...

BRESLIN: And Republican governor said: Thank God I stopped this before we did the worst thing of all, killed an innocent man. They killed, you know...

BLITZER: But that is not going to be an issue though, if everybody in...

BRESLIN: No, everybody -- that is why I feel like I'm out in the left field.

BLITZER: It's a big issue for you. What about...

BRESLIN: Very big. I think life and death -- when the state takes a life, I should think it is very -- it is a larger issue. They don't want to talk...

BLITZER: He makes a good case, Al.

BRESLIN: Oh, it's a good case.

FRANKEN: I think that Texas...

BLITZER: You don't support the death penalty?

FRANKEN: No, I don't. I personally don't.

BLITZER: I just guessed that. I didn't know that.

FRANKEN: Well, I have a reason for it. You want to hear it?

BLITZER: Go ahead.

FRANKEN: OK, well, because you are going to execute the wrong guy every once in a while. I wrote in my book, "Rush Limbaugh is a Big Fat Idiot" -- I don't know if you remember that.

BLITZER: Remember that book.

FRANKEN: There was this case in Georgia where two Vietnamese men were arrested -- and one for robbery and one for murder -- and there was a mixup. And the one that arrested for robbery was brought into court and almost convicted for murder, including an eyewitness, until the guy who was accused of murder said: I'm the robber. I'm the murderer. He is the robber. He is the guy that was -- so this happens all the time.

BLITZER: So...

BRESLIN: I think it's a lowering of the standards of decency and civility by a whole country when you have a death penalty. Who are you to play God and kill somebody? The guy killed somebody, your argument -- and absolutely right -- throw the key away. But don't you do it on my behalf. I don't want blood on my hands.

BLITZER: Carl

BERNSTEIN, hold your thought, because we have to take a quick break -- a lot more to talk about on LARRY KING LIVE. Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Carl

BERNSTEIN, you are writing a bio on Mrs. Clinton in between everything else. Why is she not able to break through -- with all the publicity, with all the money with the name recognition, running against somebody who is not all that well-known -- a Congressman from Long Island, Rick Lazio -- why does she -- she can't get through that 50 percent barrier?

BERNSTEIN: Well, both Clintons, partly because of the vitriol that they have attracted from their enemies, are polarizing figures in one sense -- that they are really disliked by a large number of people. And they have become a kind of punching bag in a debate that is not just about them. They are cultural icons. They represent to people all kinds of baggage that they bring to the electoral process that I think have very little to do with the Clintons themselves.

BLITZER: So it doesn't really make any difference, Jimmy

BRESLIN -- you have been around New York a long time -- if it is Rick Lazio running against Mrs. Clinton or Rudy Giuliani, there is going to be a solid block of people of who just hate her no matter what.

BRESLIN: But she has been here a year and hasn't moved an inch, which would show that she is a certified public bore. She is a boring woman. But I cannot believe that, at the end -- at the end of October, November -- that these women who are so steadfastly against her now are not going come around.

BLITZER: So you think she will win.

BRESLIN: In my mind, how can a woman not vote for her? (CROSSTALK)

BRESLIN: A woman as a United States senator, how you can not vote for her? I don't believe they won't.

BLITZER: So the women vote will be decisive in New York state?

BRESLIN: I don't want to see it. I do not want to see this woman any place. I think she is bad. She comes from a bad guy. But, she wins. (CROSSTALK)

BERNSTEIN: She was born by Bill.

FRANKEN: One thing I think is really interesting is that when she jumped into this race -- was basically in the beginning of '99 -- and at that time her approval rating was...

BERNSTEIN: Absolutely.

FRANKEN: Like in the high 70s or something. And it is an odd thing that I think -- and this right in wake of the impeachment and the acquittal -- I think New Yorkers and Americans like a victim. And I think when she refused to just be a victim and to run and fight for the things that she believes in, that is when she got in trouble. And I don't totally get it. I don't know if you can maybe explain it.

BERNSTEIN: Well, I think there is one other factor. And that is that she is a woman. I think that a lot of the adjectives that are applied to Hillary Clinton would never be applied to a male politician who did the same things. They are connotative words, you know, like, steely -- a guy that did the same thing, you wouldn't call him steely. You would call him thoughtful, perhaps.

BRESLIN: The sense of entitlement is outrageous.

BLITZER: The fact that she deserves this. (CROSSTALK)

BRESLIN: She comes in: I deserve this. (CROSSTALK)

BRESLIN; Why doesn't she go to some place and learn not to lecture with that sing-song voice and I might be a little more kindly. She is going to win because she is a woman, period.

BLITZER: And that's it.

FRANKEN: I think she is going to win because she is actually a devoted...

BRESLIN: What does the stand for? Tell me, what does she stand for?

FRANKEN: She has worked for children for 30 years.

BRESLIN: Really, with the welfare bill that they so proudly threw out: aid to dependent children. We got soup kitchens loaded with people because of that. And she is taking a bow it for -- not here.

BLITZER: She did support the welfare reform, which was pretty controversial. (CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: A lot of liberal Democrats in New York state didn't like it. (CROSSTALK)

BRESLIN: No, they didn't like it in Brooklyn where they have to go to a soup kitchen.

BERNSTEIN: One of the things that we keep running up against seems to me -- on this broadcast and in both campaigns, the presidential and the Senate campaigns -- the degree to which people are occupying and enunciating positions that have to do with polls, rather than their core beliefs. Our political processes has increasingly become about not offending voters. And I think we saw that in the presentations by the two people from the Clinton and Lazio campaigns. We are seeing it by the candidates. The whole idea that, you know, to say something negative substantively about a candidate is now a bad thing. I mean...

BLITZER: What is so bad about...

BRESLIN: Exactly.

BLITZER: ... making it a campaign (CROSSTALK)

BRESLIN: If it is the truth about somebody's record, it's politics. (CROSSTALK)

BRESLIN: This has gotten to be insane. We have elections now -- and this one in particular, the presidential election -- which is about nice. Whoever is...

FRANKEN: Bush has made that an issue saying, that... (CROSSTALK)

BRESLIN: He is not going to...

FRANKEN: ... they are going to restore dignity to politics, which is why is they had the Rock. (CROSSTALK)

BRESLIN: I wish the television reporters would start to get nasty with these candidates. There is not one reporter in American television or newspapers that they seem to dislike or fear -- outside of Gumbel -- nobody seems to like him as a person. Beyond that, beyond that, everyone, they can't wait to go on a show. They like Russert. He never hurts anybody. Of course you are going to like him.

BLITZER: He asks tough questions. (CROSSTALK)

BRESLIN: Oh, come on, abuse these people. Let's see (CROSSTALK)

FRANKEN: King is very prepared when he has... (CROSSTALK)

BERNSTEIN: People ask the candidates tough questions, they do.

BRESLIN: I don't see it. There is not one...

FRANKEN: Margaret Warner is very nasty.

BLITZER: We are going to take a break. But when we come back, I'm going to ask Jimmy

BRESLIN to give us one question he would ask Mrs. Clinton if he had a chance to ask her that one question.

FRANKEN: Oh, good.

BLITZER: We'll be back with LARRY KING LIVE. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Jimmy

BRESLIN, you were complaining that we don't ask tough questions of the major candidates including Mrs. Clinton. All right, you have a chance, what question would you ask Mrs. Clinton that none of us have been trying to ask her?

BRESLIN: You spent your life with your hand over your heart when you mentioned the Children's Defense Fund -- children. We must take care of our children. You then just walked away from it and supported a new welfare reform bill, which has thrown a lot of people into soup kitchens. Are you going to be able to ignore that the same as you ignored your husband's trouble downstairs in the hallway?

BLITZER: OK, good question.

FRANKEN: That is why they don't allow you on to do that. Anyway...

BERNSTEIN: You can do it on Bryant Gumbel.

BLITZER: Let's take a caller. We have a caller from Ellijay, Georgia. Go ahead, please, with your question. CALLER: Yes, Wolf, I would like to ask Al

FRANKEN: Al, more people watch "Survivor" than are watching politics. What can we do, Al, to motivate and fire up the American people to get more involved in politics?

BERNSTEIN: Go to an island.

FRANKEN: Well, we haven't seen the ratings for this show yet. (CROSSTALK)

FRANKEN: We don't see that until tomorrow.

BLITZER: I can assure you, they won't be 51 million.

FRANKEN: Oh. (CROSSTALK)

FRANKEN: Well, that was a phenomenon. And I think that if you have the debates that you were talking about in the first segment of your show -- which are the actual prime-time debates that the non- partisan or bipartisan commission recommended -- that you will have as many people watching.

BLITZER: You think?

FRANKEN: Yeah. Sure.

BLITZER: All right, let's take another caller from San Antonio. Go ahead with your question, please. CALLER: Hi. President Clinton executed a retarded man during his '92 campaign. Why does the media have a double standard when it comes to George W. Bush and the death penalty? (CROSSTALK)

BERNSTEIN: I think it is not double standard. It is the kind of thing where the media gets blamed. How do you know about the fact? You know it from media. It was widely publicized by the media. And Clinton widely criticized for it in the media.

BLITZER: But he showed he was tough, that he was a tough guy by going forward with that execution.

BRESLIN: The night of execution of Ricky Ray Rector, who had had a lobotomy, Clinton and his wife were in the governor's mansion in Little Rock preparing for another one of their sex shows to try and fend off another woman came out of the woodwork on them. And Clinton wouldn't take a call from the lawyer who was out in the street begging to have somebody do something for this guy. When we he was going to go to get killed, he -- they gave him a piece of pie for dinner. And he said: I'll leave this here. I will get it when I come back. That is what you executed, while he worried about some Gennifer Flowers or something, with Hillary nodding: That is a good answer to give CBS. That is what...

BLITZER: He doesn't like Bill or Hillary Clinton.

BRESLIN: Not -- what for the...

BLITZER: To tell you.

BRESLIN: For the execution? Ricky Ray Rector?

BLITZER: For a lot of other stuff, too.

BRESLIN: They had no doctor present, you know. They had to just cut his arm open like he's a chicken.

BLITZER: Is Al Gore in the groove right now -- has got the big momentum with him?

FRANKEN: I hope so. He got -- it is funny to watch these -- the Bush people trying to -- this is -- we expected this bounce. And we know that by Labor Day this bounce will fade. And we are already seeing in our internal polls that it is fading. I think that this has been a terrible week for W. He can't explain his huge $1.3 trillion -- I can explain it -- $1.3 trillion tax cut, half of which goes to people in the top 1 percent.

BLITZER: All right, we will talk about that. We've got to take a quick break. Jimmy, hold your thought for one second.

BRESLIN: It's a brilliant thought.

BLITZER: We'll be right back with LARRY KING LIVE. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: You know, Jimmy

BRESLIN you were predicting that Mrs. Clinton would win this race in New York State. What about in the presidential contest, Al Gore versus George W. Bush?

BRESLIN: I'm so enthralled with the projected surplus, how they go in to spend it. The "Times" editorial said it's the difference between the parties, is how each will spend the projected surplus, which on a winter day may not be there. And they remind me whether -- we learned here in New York, Champ Segal is on Broadway on phone calling Las Vegas to make a $10,000 bet on a fight, and the man in Las Vegas, obviously, is refusing him because he's a welcher, and Segal said, "What's the difference? You're not going to pay me, and I'm not going to pay you. So take the bet and have a... (LAUGHTER)

BLITZER: Al

FRANKEN, did you see the kiss, the famous kiss? I want you to look at our monitor, because we've got some video. Look at this in Los Angeles.

FRANKEN: I think everyone's seen it.

BLITZER: Al Gore and Tipper Gore.

BERNSTEIN: That's "Love Story," right? Isn't that "Love Story?"

BLITZER: All the commotion about the kiss. The man loves his wife -- what's so bad about that?

FRANKEN: I think it was spontaneous moment. Some people are very cynical, and they thought this was, we are going to prove that we have sex, we are going to kiss for eight seconds.

BRESLIN: We're going prove that we're not Clinton.

BLITZER: Is that what that was all about?

FRANKEN: No, no, no, that's the cynic's view.

BRESLIN: Well, I'm a cynic then, and I'm right. (LAUGHTER)

FRANKEN: Well, all right.

BLITZER: Well, when he said, "I will never let you down," what was he talking about?

FRANKEN: No, I think that that was a big moment he a big moment for them both, and he asked, was he sending a message, and his answer, I like very much, which I was sending...

BERNSTEIN: Which was, to Tipper.

FRANKEN: Yes, I was giving up Tipper a message.

BERNSTEIN: I stepped on your line.

FRANKEN: That's OK, Carl.

BERNSTEIN: This is the first time I've ever been on a show and been a straight man.

BLITZER: Is this is first time in your political career you've been a discussing a kiss in a political contest -- context?

BERNSTEIN: Probably not, but that's OK. What do you want to ask me? (LAUGHTER)

BLITZER: "Deep Throat" -- Who is "Deep Throat?"

BERNSTEIN: I think there is something interesting going on here in the dynamic of this, and that is, that a lot of the serious questions that candidates need to answer are outside the kind of "politests" of the regular debate, that all of us as journalists engage in. You know, we kind of let the candidates set the terms of debate. We never go outside. And

BRESLIN has asked some really interesting questions here. You know, the pope -- as I said in my last book, "Biography of the Pope," -- no, no, but the pope... (CROSSTALK)

FRANKEN: Great book, by the way.

BERNSTEIN: But the pope, for instance, has spoken out against capital punishment. It is a basic moral question that ought to be debated. The Catholic Church in America is against the death penalty, though I doubt the Catholic voters might share the view of the bishops .

BRESLIN: We had a cop in the family got killed and two people got executed over it, and the widow of the cop was struck down by night of exclusion. It doesn't do anybody any good we found.

BLITZER: Did you see that controversy now in New York around Giuliani, the milk ad, the prostate? You saw that?

BRESLIN: I saw that.

BLITZER: You have that video -- picture of that, PETA put it out , saying that -- it's caused an uproar here.

BRESLIN: I wasn't in love with that. The guy's sick.

BLITZER: "Got prostate cancer? Drinking milk contributes to prostate cancer." Rudy Giuliani is very upset about this. They used his is likeness without his permission.

FRANKEN: Well, he's a public figure, and I guess they can do that. But what was weird about is I saw that today on CNN.

BERNSTEIN: The PETA people put it out.

FRANKEN: Yes, I saw the thing, and I went -- immediately got glass of milk. Because remember, I really like milk, and that's what it reminded me of.

BLITZER: And we don't think it has anything to do with prostate cancer, right?

FRANKEN: Oh, gosh, I hope not.

BLITZER: Carl

BERNSTEIN, Rudy Giuliani seems to be getting over this problem. He's moving on with his life, right?

BERNSTEIN: I think that Giuliani has been changed by his experience, that he is a different man. One of the interesting things about the Senate race..0

BRESLIN: He got caught with a girl; the prostate cancer didn't change him.

BERNSTEIN: Well, no, I think that's true, that he started one of the things that Hillary Clinton did...

FRANKEN: He's in love.

BERNSTEIN: ... is if she provoked him into a meltdown, she would have beat him. I think that was what was going on.

BLITZER: Did you always think that he would be in this race or he would drop out?

BRESLIN: I thought he would drop out, I did.

BLITZER: On the basis of what?

BRESLIN: On basis of it was getting tough.

BLITZER: Did you think he would drop out, too?

FRANKEN: I really didn't know. I think that it's easy to say now that she would have beaten Rudy now. The post-"I'm getting separated from my wife, but I didn't tell her that I'm going to say so" Rudy is pretty easy to beat.

BRESLIN: No, no, no, before that.

BERNSTEIN: I think, though, she had provoked him to a point where he started to self-destruct in the couple weeks leading up to that. She's had more trouble with Lazio. You know, both these elections, the presidential election and the Senate election, are about very different candidates with very different sets of values, and very different choices and very different records. I mean, there is a very little in George W. Bush's record and his stands and Al Gore stands at record that are comparable, and the same with Hillary Clinton and Rick Lazio.

BLITZER: And you say there's no difference?

BRESLIN: Can't see any difference.

BERNSTEIN: Jimmy, that's just not the case.

BRESLIN: I can't see any.

BLITZER: Jimmy

BRESLIN.

BRESLIN: I see great boredom coming out of both sides -- boring.

BERNSTEIN: That's a different question.

BRESLIN: Well, that's a major question. That's a felony to me.

BLITZER: Jimmy

BRESLIN, we've got to leave it right there. Al

FRANKEN, Carl

BERNSTEIN, two Pulitzer prize winners.

BERNSTEIN: Soon to be a Pulitzer Prize winner.

FRANKEN: I won some Emmys. I won a Grammy, a Grammy.

BLITZER: LARRY KING will be back Monday night. Thanks for joining us.