SHOW: MSNBC, DONAHUE
January 6, 2003 Saturday
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. ANNOUNCER: Tonight: Talk of a liberal media bias has been around for years. Now some are asking, is there a conservative bias in the media? From Rush Limbaugh to Bill O’Reilly, is America being bombarded with right-wing rhetoric? DONAHUE goes inside the question with comedian Al Franken, former New York Governor Mario Cuomo, radio talk show host Jeffrey Whitaker, and “Bias” author Bernard Goldberg. DONAHUE starts right now. PHIL DONAHUE, HOST: Good evening and welcome to DONAHUE. It’s a new year and we’re back live from 30 Rock in New York City. Is there a conservative bias in the media? I want to tell you, I think I know there is. Everybody is a conservative. All the newspaper columnists on the op-ed page, from Will to Cal Thomas, to Safire. There’s nobody-we’ve got some center folks, but there’s nobody on the left. Who do you know is a liberal? Who admits to being a liberal? I believe conservatives have done such a fabulous job of marginalizing liberals, laughing at liberals: Liberals are afraid to go to war. Liberals have never found a poor people they didn’t want to give other people’s money to. Liberals are wimps. Liberals don’t believe in God. Liberals are for unions. Can you imagine? They’re for organized labor. And the result is intimidation, people afraid to speak up, afraid to acknowledge that they even have a progressive idea, people even afraid to stand up. We’re not patriotic, by the way. You are the man who wrote the book and the book flew out of the stores. Holy cow. The best way to make money is to write a book bashing liberals. You’re on, Bernie Goldberg, ex-CBS News, author of the book titled “Bias,” best-seller. Go get them, kid. BERNARD GOLDBERG, AUTHOR, “BIAS”: I’m having an acid flashback. This feels like 1968. (LAUGHTER) DONAHUE: How’s that? GOLDBERG: Well, everything you said in the last 45 seconds or so, you could have and probably did say in 1968. And you think nothing has changed. Here’s the difference, Phil. When you say that there are all these conservatives out there, you’re absolutely right, absolutely 100 percent right. And do the Republicans use their friends in conservative places to get their message out? Yes, they do. Al Gore was absolutely right about that. But here’s what Al Gore leave out and here’s what you leave out. Do you think the Democrats, do you just think maybe the Democrats have friends in liberal places? And while we’re worried about Fox somehow influencing the election, let me tell you what liberal places the Democrats have friends in. DONAHUE: Tell me. GOLDBERG: The editorial board of “The New York Times,” of “The Washington Post,” of “The Chicago Tribune.” DONAHUE: That’s probably why they’re beating the drum about Harken Energy, Enron-and what’s Cheney’s-Halliburton. You hear nothing. You hear nothing. Where were these liberals-where were these conservatives or liberals at the time that Clinton was being hung up because of a $12 deal called Watergate-I’m sorry-Whitewater? GOLDBERG: Right. And that’s because-I just want to make sure I understand this-before I lapse totally into a coma. DONAHUE: Right. Well, we don’t want you to do that. It’s an hour-long show, Bernie. Go get ‘em. Go. GOLDBERG: And that’s because the editorial boards of “The New York Times” and “The Washington Post” and “The L.A. Times” and “The Chicago Tribune” are conservative? Is that what you’re saying? MARIO CUOMO, FORMER NEW YORK GOVERNOR: The fact is, I think... DONAHUE: Governor Cuomo. CUOMO: I think, Bernie, that 16 of the last 18 presidential elections, those newspapers went overwhelmingly for the Republican. DONAHUE: Yes, they did, 60/40, about, for Bush. CUOMO: And that’s always the case. DONAHUE: This is the liberal media, 60/40 for Bush. GOLDBERG: Not the papers I mentioned. Well, the last time “The New York Times” endorsed anybody even vaguely considered conservative was Dwight Eisenhower in the 1950s. CUOMO: They’re in the 39 percent. It’s 61 to 39 percent for the Republicans. And you talk about the editorial policy and you talk about these newspapers. What did they do to Al Gore in 2000? They killed him. What did “The New York Times” do to Bill Clinton? What did they do to Hillary Clinton? They savaged these people. GOLDBERG: Because liberal bias is not mainly about politics. Journalists will go after... (CROSSTALK) GOLDBERG: No, it’s about the big social issues. It’s about race. It’s about feminism. It’s about gay rights. It’s about abortion. DONAHUE: Those are all liberal issues, you think? GOLDBERG: No, I’m saying that what’s bias is about, those issues. It isn’t about politics, because journalists-and I am one and was one at CBS News for 28 years-will go after their liberal grandmother if they thought it would help their careers. They’ll go after any politician if he’s big enough, whether he’s liberal or conservative. DONAHUE: I have not even introduced radio talk show host Jeffrey Whitaker. And on the satellite from San Francisco is the good Al Franken, the comedian and author of “Oh, the Things I Know.” You’re listening, Al. What do you think? AL FRANKEN, COMEDIAN: Oh, I think Bernie is wrong. (LAUGHTER) FRANKEN: Look at 2000. And I think this is, whether he says it’s about politics or not, when you hear Rush Limbaugh talk about it, when you hear people on the Fox News Channel talk about it, they say it’s about politics. And let me use an example from 2000. During the debates, during the first debate, Al Gore said that he had gone down to Texas to go to a disaster site with James Lee Witt, the head of FEMA. It turned out he hadn’t. He had gone to 17 disasters with James Lee Witt, not that one. He went with the deputy of Witt. The press jumped all over him. It was as if James Lee Witt were the most popular man in America and Al Gore was lying to get some of that James Lee Witt magic to rub off on him. The next debate-and this is relevant today, by the way-George W. Bush says-and this is a quote-”By far, the vast majority of my tax cut goes to those at the bottom.” “By far, the vast majority of my tax cut goes to those at the bottom.” Nothing. We heard nothing from the press on that. The Gore people tried to get press to write about it. They wouldn’t. And is it because there’s a conservative bias in the media? I don’t think so. I think the attitude in the media about Bush then was, he doesn’t know. Leave the man alone. He doesn’t know. Leave him alone. (LAUGHTER) DONAHUE: How would you respond to that, Bernie? GOLDBERG: Well, I would respond with a question. Does that mean-does that mean that the media is out to give Republicans a free ride? Does anybody think the media is out the give Republicans a free ride? (CROSSTALK) DONAHUE: Well, does making fun of a flat tax mean that the media is liberal? I mean, you built your whole argument on a few isolated incidents. GOLDBERG: Oh, no, I didn’t. No, I didn’t. DONAHUE: And you’re totally ignoring the drumbeat of conservative voices in this country that has made it almost courageous... FRANKEN: Can I get in here one more... DONAHUE: ... to stand up and say, hey, maybe we want to talk more about this war. You really have squelched dissent with this power. Go ahead, Al. FRANKEN: Here’s the difference between the mainstream media and the 15 percent of the media that is Fox, that is “The Washington Times,” that is “The New York Post,” that’s Hannity, that’s Rush. They cheat. The mainstream media at least tries to be fair. DONAHUE: Well, tell me about cheating. FRANKEN: Makes an attempt at it. DONAHUE: Tell me about cheating. You have to make your case here. What do you mean cheat? FRANKEN: Well, who do you want? Well, let’s talk about-let’s go to Bernie. DONAHUE: Bernie. FRANKEN: In your book, you cheat. DONAHUE: How does he cheat? FRANKEN: In your book. You have chapter 12. I read your book on the plane. Chapter 12, “Liberal Hate Speech.” You cite 12 examples of liberal hate speech. One of them is a quote from John Chancellor on August 21, 1991, about the Soviet Union. Do you know what happened that day in the Soviet Union, Bernie? GOLDBERG: Why don’t you tell me? FRANKEN: No, why don’t you tell me? I want to know if you even... GOLDBERG: Read the quote, so the people will know what we’re talking about. FRANKEN: “It’s short of soap, so there are lice in hospitals. It’s short of pantyhose, so women’s legs go bare. It’s short snowsuits, so babies stay home in winter. Sometimes it’s short of cigarettes, so millions of people stop smoking involuntarily. It drives everybody crazy. The problem isn’t communism. No one even talked about communism this week. The problem is shortages.” This was John Chancellor . (CROSSTALK) FRANKEN: Now what happened in the Soviet Union that day? GOLDBERG: Well, I don’t know what happened that day. But you’re (CROSSTALK) FRANKEN: Do you want to know what happened? It was a huge day in the Soviet Union. DONAHUE: Well, go ahead. Let’s go. It’s an hour-show. What happened, Al? FRANKEN: That was the collapse of the coup, the hard-liner coup at the Parliament. GOLDBERG: And? FRANKEN: And that was a huge-well, and? Do you know that perestroika had been in effect for six years at that point? The point here is, Bernie, you regurgitated a quote that you got from some right-wing media watch group. And you did not care to look at the context of it. Listen to how Tom Brokaw opened that evening news. If you’re talking about that there’s a left-wing bias, this is how Tom Brokaw opened the news that day from this thing that you’re quoting. “Good evening. Wednesday, August 21, 1991. This is a day for bold print in history to be remembered and savored as the day when the power of the people in the Soviet Union proved to be greater than the power of the gray and cold-blooded men who thought they could return that country to the darkness of state oppression.” Boy, it sounds like a real pro-communist bias on NBC, doesn’t it? But you know what, Bernie? You didn’t even bother to find out what the context of John Chancellor-who, by the way, is dead, and couldn’t defend himself. You had no interest in finding out the context of what he was saying. And what he was saying was that, after six years of perestroika, in which communism was gone, that the people were-that the reason for these shortages was the transition away from communism. (CROSSTALK) FRANKEN: Then you had the nerve to say about John Chancellor-you call his absurd observation that the problem in the old Soviet Union wasn’t communism, but shortages. The only thing absurd about this is your accusing John Chancellor of saying that. DONAHUE: Now, Mr. Whitaker, you wanted to say, briefly. JEFF WHITAKER, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: As many examples as Al can pull out, I can pull out a lot of leads into the nightly news (CROSSTALK) DONAHUE: We could be here all night playing ping-pong. (CROSSTALK) WHITAKER: You want to say, on one hand... DONAHUE: I don’t understand how, after the success of Fox and the success of so many... FRANKEN: I want to hear Bernie. This is about accountability. DONAHUE: With so many people on op-ed pages who are drumbeating for the war, who are contemptible-who have contempt for liberals, you step forward to say somehow the liberal is this powerful voice. We have no voice, almost none at all. (CROSSTALK) FRANKEN: Phil, why are you letting Bernie off? WHITAKER: The premise of this show, which is, is there a conservative bias, that’s laughable. That’s laughable. DONAHUE: Yes, I think there is. We’re going to give everybody a chance when we come back in just a moment. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) DONAHUE: Welcome back. Our question tonight: Is there a right-wing bias in the media? I said there is and it’s everywhere, ubiquitous. Jeff Whitaker, the conservative radio host, wanted to say? Sir, you look-we want you to be glad you came here. What is it? WHITAKER: Thank you for having me. DONAHUE: I’m pleased that you’re here. You wanted to say? WHITAKER: For years, you guys have been looking for a left-wing version of Rush Limbaugh. Why can’t you guys find one out there? Why are you so upset that-now, we’re talking conservative talk radio. We have got Rush Limbaugh. We’ve got the success of Sean Hannity. DONAHUE: I’ve tried to explain, at least make a contribution toward - this is a complex question. I believe that the drumbeat has been so powerful, so everywhere, that it has literally intimidated people who might want to dissent from the war. They’re going to be called unpatriotic. I was called unpatriotic by a person in this very NBC-MSNBC family. This is very difficult out there. At a time when we need dissent the most, everybody is sitting back and afraid. (CROSSTALK) WHITAKER: ... unpatriotic, but let me give a Phil Donahue quote from MSNBC with Tom Brokaw. As you proudly sat here and said: “Let me tell you what is impressive. You’re not wearing a flag. Well, I don’t want to dance you with my praise, but I say, hip, hip hooray for that.” DONAHUE: And I’d be glad to stand by that. WHITAKER: What’s wrong with wearing a flag? (CROSSTALK) DONAHUE: It’s not about-you can wear a flag. WHITAKER: Are you proud to be an American? DONAHUE: I am. First of all, I resent having to answer the question. WHITAKER: Well, of course you’re proud, but you... DONAHUE: Why would you ask me? Because I wouldn’t ask you that. WHITAKER: But I don’t think you’re any less American because you don’t wear a flag. Don’t think I’m any more... (CROSSTALK) DONAHUE: All right, then why would you ask me, then, if I’m proud to be an American. I certainly don’t see patriotism expressed on the lapel as some sort of virtue. WHITAKER: But is there anything wrong with it? DONAHUE: I think it’s false piety. And I am proud to live in a country that doesn’t look for that kind of showy demonstration. I believe we should walk softly and carry a big stick. Instead, this country is carrying the biggest stick on Earth and we’re walking around the world like a galoot. And I think it’s going to hurt this nation. And more Americans ought to be standing up and saying so. (APPLAUSE) DONAHUE: Governor, You wanted to say what? Governor? CUOMO: You’re asking why we don’t have a Rush Limbaugh. DONAHUE: Right. Right. CUOMO: I don’t think we want a Rush Limbaugh. (APPLAUSE) WHITAKER: Sure you do. You’re a liberal. CUOMO: Yes, I’m a liberal. I think the problem I have is that I see things in degrees. I see things-I see both sides of issues. And I insist on a little subtlety in my political positions. DONAHUE: Governor, I want you to finish your thought. I regret that I have no choice, but I have to interrupt. The computer is against me. We’ll be back in just a moment. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) DONAHUE: We’re back, talking about bias in the media. The governor was saying before the break, sir? CUOMO: We were talking about Rush Limbaugh. Let’s see if we can’t adjust our perspective here. You have Rush Limbaugh. Rush Limbaugh tells one side of the story. He exaggerates it. He hyperbolizes. He is a master entertainer. There’s no question about that. He’s very bright. He’s probably a very good fellow, too. He does not discuss the issues. He does not debate the issues. He doesn’t want to give you a full view of the issues. He won’t even entertain a debate. He doesn’t want any kind of a debate. And he pleases a lot of people, because he says what they want to hear. So does Bob Grant here in New York. So does the Murdoch papers, “The New York Post.” We don’t have counterparts on the liberal side. DONAHUE: Why is that, Governor? CUOMO: Well, because we believe in subtlety. We believe in telling the whole truth. We don’t want to exaggerate. You see, look, they write their message with crayons. We use fine-point quills. We get a little bit more, I think-intellectual is not the right word. WHITAKER: Governor... CUOMO: But let me just add one thing. With all the shouting, with all the cursing, with all the sometimes hateful talk we get out of conservative spokespeople, thank God it’s not having an effect, in my opinion. In the last three presidential elections, despite all the Limbaughs, all the Grants, all “The Wall Street Journal” editorials, the Democrats have gotten a majority of the popular vote, including in 2000, when Al Gore got more votes than George Bush, despite all this screeching from the conservatives. (APPLAUSE) WHITAKER: Let me ask you how subtle this is. This is a poll, Governor-this is a poll conducted by “Newsweek.” Tell me if there’s some bias in this. “Do you think Congress should approve Bush’s choice of John Ashcroft as attorney general or reject Ashcroft as too far to the right on issues like abortion, drugs and gun control to be an effective attorney general?” Why did they have to put that second sentence in there? Why can’t they just say, do you think he should... DONAHUE: Who is they? Who did that? WHITAKER: “Newsweek.” DONAHUE: “Newsweek”? (CROSSTALK) CUOMO: Excuse me. What was the answer? WHITAKER: The answer? What difference does it make what the answer was? (CROSSTALK) CUOMO: I want to know what the American people thought of that question. WHITAKER: That the poll was a bias. CUOMO: What do you mean a bias? It is a question. Do you think that Ashcroft puts his thumb on the scale when he’s balancing rights against law enforcement or not? What was the answer? What did that American people say? WHITAKER: Thirty-seven percent to 41 percent said that he should. CUOMO: That he should what? WHITAKER: That Congress should approve his choice. CUOMO: See, that was pretty close, right? So, I guess the question was a fair one. (APPLAUSE) DONAHUE: Bernie wanted to say? Bernie? GOLDBERG: We have one of America’s foremost liberals here, who is... DONAHUE: A man who stood against a hostile nation and his own legislature alone, with as much courage as you’ll find out there in a public servant today, against the barbarity of capital punishment. For that alone, Governor, I tip my hat to you. (APPLAUSE) DONAHUE: And we just got about a four on the popularity applause meter. We’re in New York City with a heck of a panel. And we’ll be back in just a moment. ANNOUNCER: Can the left duplicate the success of the so-called right-wing media? DONAHUE goes inside the question: Who is the liberal answer to Rush Limbaugh? — when DONAHUE returns. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) DONAHUE: Is right-wing political power taking over the press? Tonight a look at whether mainstream media is becoming more conservative and now that impacts the way you get your news. But first, the headlines from MSNBC headquarters. (NEWS BREAK) DONAHUE: Welcome back to DONAHUE. We’re live at Rockefeller Center in New York City, and tonight we’re talking about conservative bias. Is the news media really impartial, or is the news you are getting tilted toward the conservative right? I’m saying yes. We’re joined by journalist Bernard Goldberg, who can’t believe my position. Former New York governor Mario Cuomo is here, as well as comedian and author Al Franken. And radio talk show host Jeff Whitaker has also joined us. Patty, are you there from Michigan? I want to get you on. You’ve waited. Are you there, Patty? CALLER: Yes, I’m here. DONAHUE: Good. You wanted to say? CALLER: Well, first all, I thought I was looking at “The Twilight Zone” when I saw the conservative bias and you hosting it because I thought, How silly can you guys be? That’s just ridiculous! DONAHUE: How’s that? What do you mean? CALLER: What do I mean? DONAHUE: Yes. CALLER: I mean that there’s so much liberal bias in the media, it’s not even funny. I remember stumbling on Fox and thinking, Oh, my gosh. At last there’s people that at least aren’t so-tilting so far to the left that I can’t-you know... DONAHUE: Yes. You... CALLER: It always made me feel like I was some kind of an idiot. DONAHUE: I have an e-mail from Jesse here. “You ask in your monologue, Where’s a liberal and where’s the liberal media? You’re on TV, aren’t you, Phil?” Well, hooray for that! Bernie, she agrees with you. GOLDBERG: Yes. And even if you disagree with her, she sounds like a nice person. My guess is she’s an intelligent person. But even if you disagree with her, you have to understand, Phil, that there are millions and millions and millions of people who think she’s right, who feel the exact same way she does, who feel as if when they watch the so-called mainstream news, their values are being... FRANKEN: That’s because you repeat over and over and over... GOLDBERG: ... either ignored altogether... FRANKEN: ... and over and over again... (CROSSTALK) DONAHUE: Wait a minute, Al. Make your point, Bernie. GOLDBERG: You can dismiss this argument that there’s a liberal bias, but you can’t dismiss that caller and the millions and millions of others. At some point, you have to deal with the fact that many Americans believe this. They believe this. We’re not all delusional. DONAHUE: I’m trying to say one of the reasons they believe this is because they’ve been overwhelmed with a thunderous conservative voice that has blown any attempt at any kind of progressive ideas off cable, off television, and filled the op-ed pages with conservative voices. Al wanted to say? Al Franken from San Francisco, go ahead. FRANKEN: So many times, these kinds of cable talk show arguments just become this kind of argument. I very specifically pointed to something that Bernie wrote in his book that I felt was a cheat, and he wouldn’t respond to it. GOLDBERG: Well, let me respond now. FRANKEN: And I want you to respond to it. GOLDBERG: Let me respond... FRANKEN: Why, Bernie... (CROSSTALK) DONAHUE: Let him rephrase the question here. Go ahead. FRANKEN: ... rephrase the question. Why did you put this quote from John Chancellor in, without even yourself-without even you checking on the context? GOLDBERG: Well, Al writes a book called “Rush Limbaugh Is a Big Fat Slob,” and he’s criticizing me! FRANKEN: That’s not the name of my book. DONAHUE: It’s “a Big Fat Idiot.” (LAUGHTER) WHITAKER: Where’s the intellectual honesty in that, Al? GOLDBERG: ... is a “Big Fat Idiot” and... FRANKEN: Wait a minute. Let me answer that! GOLDBERG: ... and I’m being criticized for taking on a news commentator who says that the fact that they don’t have soap in the Soviet Union, the fact that they don’t have food, the fact that they don’t have anything isn’t the result of communism, it’s the result of shortages. FRANKEN: No, that’s not what he said! GOLDBERG: Al, you’re a comedian. You ought to use that in your routine! FRANKEN: And I told you the context in which you took this quote. And the context was after six years of perestroika, after six years of dismantling centralized economy in the Soviet Union, that’s when they had worst shortages. GOLDBERG: So, what, capitalism brought this on? Is that what you’re saying? FRANKEN: No, no. I am saying that you didn’t bother to know what happened in the Soviet Union that very historic day. I’m saying that you were sloppy. I am saying that people like Rush Limbaugh are sloppy. GOLDBERG: See, here’s the other problem... FRANKEN: I am saying that people like the Fox network are sloppy. And I’m saying that the mainstream media is-has standards, and you don’t. And you don’t... DONAHUE: Right. But... FRANKEN: ... in the way you use that quote. (APPLAUSE) (CROSSTALK) DONAHUE: Governor-Governor... FRANKEN: John Chancellor is not alive to defend himself. DONAHUE: Yes. FRANKEN: But Milton Freedman would agree with John Chancellor here. GOLDBERG: Why... FRANKEN: And you called it “liberal hate speech.” You said that it was “liberal hate speech.” That’s what you called it. And you should be ashamed of yourself. GOLDBERG: Why does that one line-what-even if you’re totally right and I’m totally wrong, Al... (CROSSTALK) DONAHUE: Why did one Eric Enberg report on the flat tax move to you write a book? (CROSSTALK) DONAHUE: I mean, he’s not allowed to bring up incidences, but you are. GOLDBERG: No, but you’re wrong about that. You’re wrong, as you are about so many things, Phil. But... DONAHUE: Oh, you could have-you could have got through show without that. FRANKEN: Talk to me, Bernie! DONAHUE: I mean, come on! FRANKEN: Talk to me, Bernie, about this! DONAHUE: I’ve got two dogs, kids, grandchildren! (CROSSTALK) DONAHUE: Let him make his point. Go ahead. FRANKEN: You’re supposed to be accountable... GOLDBERG: I didn’t write a book because of... FRANKEN: ... in the media. GOLDBERG: I didn’t write a book because of any one example. I wrote a book because I saw things in my real life, and then I saw things that were on the news and they didn’t jibe. They didn’t go together. DONAHUE: All right. FRANKEN: But you have to maintain your credibility in order to write that way because most of what you write about you say is your own personal experience, but other people who had the same experience disagree with you... DONAHUE: Yes. FRANKEN: ... and said those things didn’t happen. (CROSSTALK) GOLDBERG: Wait a second. Wait a second. DONAHUE: Bernie... GOLDBERG: This will not stand. That is absolutely wrong. There is not one person who said I got things wrong in the book. Not one person. And Al, since you’re being such a big mouth about this, go ahead, tell me who said it. Tell me who said it. FRANKEN: I don’t know. GOLDBERG: You know why you don’t know? Because you just made it up. This is what gets me about the subject of liberal bias. I could talk about pedophilia, and nobody ever... FRANKEN: No, I-first of all... GOLDBERG: Wait a second, Al. People wouldn’t get this angry. But you talk about liberal bias in the news-and you, Phil, with all due respect... CUOMO: Well, you did make some mistakes in the book, Bernie. Now... (APPLAUSE) (CROSSTALK) FRANKEN: Bernie, I’m challenging you on... CUOMO: Can I pull out just one or two? FRANKEN: ... what’s in your book. GOLDBERG: Go ahead. CUOMO: All right. You referred to Bill Clinton and homelessness. GOLDBERG: Right. CUOMO: And you said that the liberals concealed the fact of homelessness with Bill Clinton and they made a point of it with Bush. GOLDBERG: I didn’t use the word “concealed.” CUOMO: Now-excuse me. Well, but this is a subject I know well because I was the governor. It’s exactly the opposite. As a matter of fact, what the media said is it started with Clinton. They made a point of homelessness in the Clinton administration. GOLDBERG: Well, Governor... CUOMO: But this is not important. Let me get... CUOMO: Don’t say that and then say this is not important! CUOMO: Well, no, no. It’s... GOLDBERG: That’s like me saying... CUOMO: Well, would you like to read the review that... GOLDBERG: No, but that’s like me saying, I heard you’ve taken bribes, but this is not important. CUOMO: No, no. I’m saying... GOLDBERG: Let’s go on to something else. CUOMO: You didn’t take a bribe. You made some mistakes in the book. GOLDBERG: That wasn’t one of them! CUOMO: You made such... GOLDBERG: That wasn’t... CUOMO: You made factual mistakes. GOLDBERG: Statistically-statistically... CUOMO: OK. GOLDBERG: ... there were more stories about homelessness... CUOMO: Let me make a more important point, if I can. The caller says that there’s all kinds of liberal bias. You say there’s all kinds of liberal bias. GOLDBERG: Right. CUOMO: Basically, you’re talking about the networks. Basically, in your book, you’re talking about Dan Rather, Brokaw and Jennings. And you refer to them over and over. They’ve been around for hundreds of thousands of hours. They have made millions of dollars. They have convinced the American people year after year that they are professionals who are telling the truth. That’s correct, isn’t it? Now, also you have Limbaugh. He’s made hundred of millions of dollars. (CROSSTALK) DONAHUE: Let him finish his point. CUOMO: Let me make my point. And Limbaugh has a lot of people who think he tells the truth. GOLDBERG: Right. CUOMO: So now the question for America. Who is telling the most truth? Is it those network people, or is it Limbaugh? GOLDBERG: But Phil... CUOMO: Wait just a minute. Who has won the last three presidential votes of the people of the United States of America, the Democrats or the Republicans? And the answer is the Democrats. (APPLAUSE) CUOMO: So they listen to the networks, they listen to Limbaugh, and they chose the liberals. DONAHUE: Billy from Tennessee. You waited. I thank you for your patience. What did you want to say? CALLER: Phil, thank you. I think the main thing I wanted to say is I’m sad that the conservatives you have on tonight have done a poor job of articulating our conservative argument, which I think is another bias of the press is that you always pick very smart, astute liberals, like Al Franken, who are very articulate, and then you have conservatives who scratch their heads and can’t come back with something. DONAHUE: Oh, well... (LAUGHTER) (CROSSTALK) DONAHUE: Sure you can, Jeff. WHITAKER: Look... DONAHUE: Yes. Thank you, Tennessee. Let me just get John from Arizona on. I promise you, you get to speak. WHITAKER: OK. DONAHUE: Go ahead, John. Are you there, John from Arizona? CALLER: I am here, Phil. A question. You were standing there a minute ago when Mario Cuomo said Democrats are the ones who tell the truth. DONAHUE: Yes. CALLER: The party of James Traficant and Bill Clinton, one’s in jail and the other should be? I mean, give me a break. DONAHUE: Yes. CALLER: And Al, I got a question for you. I saw you on “This Week” a week ago. Are you back on cocaine? DONAHUE: Are you back on cocaine? There’s a... FRANKEN: Yes! (LAUGHTER) (CROSSTALK) DONAHUE: That’s a conservative caller right there! (CROSSTALK) WHITAKER: ... the line, Phil, because what you’re looking at here is see, you’re comparing... DONAHUE: Blurring the line, and he just accused him of cocaine? WHITAKER: You’re blurring the line! You are-you’re comparing Rush Limbaugh to the mainstream media... DONAHUE: You’re going to say that’s punditry... WHITAKER: It is! DONAHUE: ... that’s not press. WHITAKER: You can say anything you want, and we know it’s punditry. But don’t present something as fact when it isn’t! DONAHUE: E.J. Dionne of “The Washington Post” makes the point that the conservative voice on radio and television has bled into and become part of mainstream journalism. WHITAKER: Because maybe he’s put a little bit of fact in where there was so much fiction, and that just ticks you off! You’re like the Catholic Church. See, for years the Catholic Church told people not to-listen, they kept their parishioners from reading the Scriptures. They kept them - they kept them... DONAHUE: Well... CUOMO: Oh, no. That’s ridiculous. WHITAKER: Now, all of a sudden-listen to this. CUOMO: That is ridiculous! That is ridiculous! (APPLAUSE) (CROSSTALK) CUOMO: And it’s ridiculous to say that they kept us from reading the Scriptures. DONAHUE: It’s been a while since somebody’s compared me to the Catholic Church. (LAUGHTER) DONAHUE: We’ll be back in just a moment. APPLAUSE: Wednesday: What does a Republican-controlled Congress and Republican president mean for abortion legislation in America? DONAHUE takes a critical look at the issue and how it will affect women in America Wednesday. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) DONAHUE: We’re back talking about conservative bias in the media. And you wanted to say? Yes, ma’am? Thank you for your patience. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How can you support a-there’s a conservative bias in the media that not only leans toward the bias but lies to get that. For example, after 9/11, there were shots in Jordan of protesters supporting the American-the fall of the twin towers. That media was two years old. GOLDBERG: No, it wasn’t. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, it was. GOLDBERG: No, it wasn’t. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A quarter of my school population... GOLDBERG: You mean the people-the people on... UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... is Arab... GOLDBERG: The people on the West Bank who were celebrating? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They were not. That was a lie, OK? I’m 100 percent sure of that. GOLDBERG: Phil... UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I go to school in Switzerland. A quarter of my school’s population is Arab, and they were there. GOLDBERG: OK. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK? GOLDBERG: Phil... DONAHUE: And they said that that was not... UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They said that was a lie. Every single person I talked to... DONAHUE: All right. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... said people were mourning... DONAHUE: Yes. You know, I regret... UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... the twin towers. DONAHUE: ... that we’re not going to be able to resolve... (CROSSTALK) GOLDBERG: Why not, Phil? You have an opinion on everything. Have an opinion on this. DONAHUE: Bernie... GOLDBERG: Have an opinion on this. DONAHUE: Do you know how much I love you, Bernie? GOLDBERG: Well, it’s mutual. DONAHUE: You know, I think you’ve been wounded tonight, kid, and you’re getting a little personal, and it’s not necessary and it’s taking up time. Now, you wanted to speak to the woman’s-go ahead. GOLDBERG: No, I want to know what you think. There are two sides here. Either the footage was two years old and they didn’t celebrate the way NBC, ABC... DONAHUE: Right. GOLDBERG: ... CBS... DONAHUE: Right. GOLDBERG: ... CNN and MSNBC said... DONAHUE: Right. GOLDBERG: ... it did... DONAHUE: Yes. GOLDBERG: ... or it was-what do you think? DONAHUE: Yes. I respect this young woman’s view, and you sound very sincere to me. But those were celebrating people in that country, and it was contemporary. It wasn’t old. I do think the point should be made, though-and I thank you for raising this issue-that not every member of every Arab nation felt that way. So let’s understand. We saw a very small part of humanity responding in a very, very inhumane way to this horrendous event. Yes? Tina from Florida, you wanted to say? CALLER: Yes, I just wanted to say that one of the reasons why a lot of us watch Fox News and things like that, and “Hannity & Colmes” and stuff like that... DONAHUE: Yes. CALLER: ... is because they-you know, they don’t give-they try to be fair and balanced, as far as I’m concerned. I mean, NBC, CBS, I always see, you know, just the... DONAHUE: Right. CALLER: ... you know, the negative side of the Republicans. And I was just embarrassed when they didn’t show the president when, you know, he had a-you know, a national thing going on TV, and they didn’t even show him. I was totally embarrassed as an American, they didn’t have him on there! DONAHUE: Yes, ma’am, you wanted to say? CALLER: Thank you. DONAHUE: Thank you. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I’d like to say that I think the press, the conservative press... DONAHUE: Yes, ma’am? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... is giving the president a free ride. A free ride! (APPLAUSE) DONAHUE: Give me an example. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Give you an example? Well, first of all, he doesn’t speak our native language, our English, very well. (LAUGHTER) DONAHUE: Well... UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And having... DONAHUE: Well, that’s not a big sin. Hell, I don’t, either, sometimes. (LAUGHTER) - UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It’s not a big sin, but it’s very disturbing to know that the leader of this country speaks so poorly and it’s all done for him. If he has to talk... DONAHUE: Right. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... ad lib, he can’t do it. And that’s sad. DONAHUE: I’ll tell you something else that bothers me. There’s almost no commentary in this nation, no commentary about the innocent people that are going to be killed in this coming war! UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know. DONAHUE: Nobody’s talking about it! I saw Helen Thomas trying to question Ari Fleischer this morning at the State Department briefing, and she didn’t get very far. Al Franken, what did you want to say there, young man? FRANKEN: Well, a couple things. I wanted to say something about Rush. I think that the audience isn’t there for a liberal Rush because I think liberals don’t want to hear that kind of demagoguery. I think liberals tend to want to hear information, so they’ll to go NPR for information. DONAHUE: Maybe the conservatives are more interesting than us! Is that possible? They’re more amusing. They’re more interesting. FRANKEN: Well, it makes it more interesting-for example, let me give you an example of Rush. And I did write a whole book about him. But I’ll give you a more contemporary example. DONAHUE: Yes. FRANKEN: After the Wellstone memorial-I went to that memorial, and I listened to Rush the next day. And he did everything he could to distort what happened there, including saying, There was not one iota of memorializing, my friend! WHITAKER: Did you see any? FRANKEN: I was actually there. I was there for three-and-a-half hours. And there was three hours and 15 minutes of memorializing. One guy gave a speech that was, I thought, too partisan. He was the best friend of a man who died in a plane crash. DONAHUE: Yes. FRANKEN: I think he could be cut some slack for that. But, oh, no! Where’s the decency, my friends! DONAHUE: Yes. I also it’s believe... (CROSSTALK) FRANKEN: Well, I’ll tell you what. They booed Hillary Clinton at Madison Square Garden at the 9/11 memorial. But Hannity the next day said she got what she deserved. I don’t-you know, these guys... DONAHUE: Yes. FRANKEN: Liberals won’t listen to that kind of thing. DONAHUE: Yes? In the audience here. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The question’s kind of silly. We’ve got a kind of a comical situation where we’ve got, realistically, five people here, two being conservative and three being liberals. So there’s already a bias in the show. DONAHUE: Yes. And I’ll tell you something. You don’t see that too often on cable TV. We’ll be back in just a moment. ANNOUNCER: Tomorrow on DONAHUE: One of the most trusted faces on television, “NBC NIGHTLY NEWS” anchor Tom Brokaw, with a live audience and your phone calls. Tomorrow. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) DONAHUE: We’re back talking about media bias. I just want to do this here. United States Marines serving at the naval base King’s Bay, Georgia, with us right here. Gentlemen, stand up. You’re the men! (APPLAUSE) DONAHUE: And I don’t want to-we don’t want to get them in any trouble. You guys are allowed to say nothing! (LAUGHTER) DONAHUE: But we want you to know how proud we are of you. Incidentally, because of you and all those folks who preceded you, we’re able to get out here and kick tires and rant and rave and dissent and do all those things. WHITAKER: Hey, Phil, liberal or conservative, who said this: I’m sorry, but I think in this Washington sniper case, what you guys are dealing with here is a white guy, and we got off on discussions about the NRA when we should have been talking about the INS and immigration. DONAHUE: Boy, you got-you’re one brilliant guy... WHITAKER: And you apologized... DONAHUE: ... after the fact! I was one of those who committed that sin. WHITAKER: You did it! DONAHUE: Yes, I was. Well, Al, you’re joining the show. You’re out there with us, and I should show them. Do you want to show them, Al Franken and Al Gore? Do you want to do that. Let’s do. Watch this. FRANKEN: Oh! DONAHUE: This is... FRANKEN: Silly. DONAHUE: ... Ms. Smalley. Go get ‘em, Ms. Smalley. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP - “SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE”) FRANKEN: I want you to say, Hi, me. Come on. AL GORE: Hi, me. FRANKEN: I am sad about not being president. Come on. GORE: I am sad about not being president. FRANKEN: And that’s OK. GORE: And that’s OK. FRANKEN: I don’t have to be the most powerful man in the world. GORE: I don’t have to be the most powerful man in the world. FRANKEN: I don’t have to be able to bomb a country any time I want. (END VIDEO CLIP) DONAHUE: Al Franken, the night after that appearance, Al Gore said he would not run for president. Do you think that the media had an impact on that? Did the media just so sort of maul Al Gore that he said, I’m not doing this now, I’m not going to put my family through this in another two years? Possible? FRANKEN: Well, as I said at the top of the show, I think that the media was much, much tougher on Al Gore than they were on Bush. But I think he-I think he explained why he wasn’t running very well. And I think that he didn’t want there to be a rehash of the 2000 race. I don’t think he wanted to put himself or everyone else through that. DONAHUE: Right. FRANKEN: And I think that’s why he didn’t run. DONAHUE: Right. GOLDBERG: What troubles me, Phil, is that the subject of media bias is like the subject of abortion. You can talk until you’re blue in the face, and nobody’s going to change his mind, I’m afraid. DONAHUE: Oh, I don’t know. I mean, people should be able call attention to the phenomenon. GOLDBERG: I think liberals think... FRANKEN: But you have to deal with it honestly. GOLDBERG: ... that people like me... DONAHUE: Hang on. GOLDBERG: ... are attacking their liberal values, which I’m not. And I think conservatives think that nothing liberals say is worth listening to. And that troubles me because I’m not here representing the right. DONAHUE: All right. GOLDBERG: I’m a journalist, and I’m troubled by the fact that I don’t think we’re getting anyplace. DONAHUE: You are Bernie Goldberg, and you wrote the book “Bias.” I thank all my guests. Tomorrow’s guest is America’s number-one newscaster. I speak of none other than Tom Brokaw. Now here’s Chris Matthews and HARDBALL. END Go back to the main page.
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